How to protect everything An Interview with Ray D*I*C*E Man Semko

An interview with Ray Semko world renown security and counter-intelligence speaker and trainer.

Ray Semko is a security educator and a professional public speaker who is nationally known for his popular and motivating D*I*C*E security awareness briefings which he has been providing to American audiences for over twenty years.

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
welcome to a brand new episode of D. O D. Secure where we discuss security clearances and national security and protecting classified information. Today we're honored to have Ray Simcoe, and I'll introduce him or later. But, ah, some of you may already know him, and he may not need an introduction. But he's a heavy hitter in the multiple motivational speaking in the security world and has a heavy background as an intelligence counterintelligence agent. And we're really glad to have him here today again. I'll introduce him later, but I just wanted to let you know up front that he is the created originator of D. I. C E. Become the dice man sometimes. Ah, defensive information to counter everything. I have introduced him throughout the podcast incorrectly as defense information, but it is defensive information to counter everything. So with that caveat, let's begin with the show. I want to welcome everybody to a special Valentine's Day deal. Sure, with your

spk_1:   1:44
hopes. Yeah,

spk_0:   1:47
well, thanks, Ray. We appreciate you being here today. Our special guest is race Simcoe, and he's a security educator and a professional public speaker, and I'll calm. A motivational speaker becomes us with over 40 years of experience, of counterintelligence and security. And he's been doing this with the government as a consultant and with the military. And I guess it's specialty is counterintelligence. And he served as account intelligence, Special agent, And, um, Ray is a veteran of the army. And when he was 18 he was drafted in the Army, and he served in Vietnam. And what I find interesting from my army experience is he was also a drill sergeant. And even more interesting was when he served in Europe, he coached some European teams into championships for American football. Hey, welcome, Ray.

spk_1:   2:44
Well, thank you, Jeff. I appreciate the introduction. I listen to it and I go Wow. Yeah, I guess I really did all that. But, uh,

spk_0:   2:53
I'm really interested in hearing good ride. Yeah, I'm really interested in hearing before getting to your into, um defense information, countering espionage. Um, wow. You actually coach these Italian football teams,

spk_1:   3:10
right? I got in on it that the ground level I was transferred to the, uh m I military intelligence office in Vicenza, Italy. And while I was there one weekend, I was sports official before I ever became a coach. I'm one of these guys that I like to enforce rules, and I'm one of these guys that I can't criticize anybody else for doing the job that they're doing until I try and do it. So I found myself with a lot of free time in Italy when I first got there and I was sitting in the stands because people told me This is what you do during the summer and I was watching teams played softball and everybody's willing these umpires tomorrow And I found myself Boone. I'm going away, but I've never done it. I don't know how hard this really is. So having a free time I did. I decided I'm gonna become a nun pyre. So I became a fast pages slow pitch softball empire, and it was fantastic. I had to learn all the rules and they are unbelievable. And one of the things that it taught me real quick was none of the players coaches knew any of these rules. Okay, I'll just know how to complaint. So I had to make sure that I was on top of my game. So what I did is I learned rules. I became very proficient and ID. I became the president of the official association in short period of time and then one of my officials that did some, but with me, he actually coached football. And so I said, Well, let me try football So I ended up trying all these things. Okay, in one weekend in 1979 he calls me up, says I have to officiate a football game between two Italian teams and I'm going. I I didn't even know there was such a thing. He said, Would you mind helping me? It's gonna be me and you He said, We're not going to get paid. We're just gonna try and help him and control the game And I said, Sure, why not? And so I went out there, we controlled the game. We move people around because they really were just new at the game and a lot of people who were trying to sponsor football and Italy. They saw what we were trying to do and they took a liking to me and the other guy that brought me in, Micro Maris. He actually was transferred, so which is me that they knew about and one thing led into another, and one of the teams in Milan, Italy, actually needed the coach and the president of the team came in very nice, man, and he wanted to coach and I said, Well, what about Mei? I'd never coached and and it's like if I've never done this, I want to do it. I want to see if I can do it And that's how I actually got involved. He hired me and I said, Listen, at a minimum, I'm gonna teach your players the rules. If they know the rules, we're gonna be way ahead of the other team. And so with that logic, he hired me in three and 1/2 years later. Three Super Bowls later to European championships. Later, Um, I had to come back to the United States, but it was a nun. Believable run. You know, it's like a

spk_0:   6:30
lot

spk_1:   6:30
of people coat, but very few people ever coach somebody who's never touched the football

spk_0:   6:36
right?

spk_1:   6:36
25 years old.

spk_0:   6:38
You were

spk_1:   6:39
there 29 years old, be It was the only game in town, and we formed a league in 1981. We had six teams in the beginning. Then we went to 12 teams and we went to 18 teams in the 1st 3 years and the competition, which is getting better and better. It was absolutely amazing. We made a rule that no American could be a quarterback. I wanted Italy to develop its own quarterbacks. I wanted Italy to develop its own following. I didn't want them watching Americans play Italian football, so we could only have two Americans on the team and that was one of the rules that I had proposed in. They couldn't play quarterback, so I developed on unbelievable quarterback. He actually ended up in the third year doing commercials on Italian national television.

spk_0:   7:33
Nice, the

spk_1:   7:34
quarterback of this Italian football thing and a lot of success stories, and I mean just wonderful people. And then I finally had to leave and I guess they left it the good time because I had won everything that there was to win. The only place I had to go was either get out of coaching and getting into more of a leadership role or just suffer the consequences of staying too long and losing bright. So I left the winner. Thank goodness and um, the funny thing happened. I want to say 30 G's. It was 33 years after I left Italy. I was actually voted into the first class of the Italian American football whole thing.

spk_0:   8:22
Congratulations. I didn't know that.

spk_1:   8:23
Yeah, Yeah, I actually received an email from the people. And the important thing that I know is that I had nobody in my corner. I mean, none of these people knew me that voted the years were complete strangers, but they knew Italian football. And I guess I had left a legacy that they thought was something it needed to be rewarded. But I was actually just blown away. They inducted 10 people the first year. I was the only American.

spk_0:   8:56
That's

spk_1:   8:56
an, um that was just amazing.

spk_0:   8:59
That's impressive. And I like what you said. Um, your philosophy there was, If you know the rules of the game, you're going to be ahead of the other teams.

spk_1:   9:09
All right? I didn't get your stint in every walk of life.

spk_0:   9:13
Yeah. Yeah. And then, I

spk_1:   9:14
mean and not only know him, but live by them. You know, that's that's the most important thing I teach people when we played our first Super Bowl and my guys. They were not that tense in the 1st 1 the second and third much more intense. But I only stole them. I said, This is a championship. The funny thing about a championship game. If you win a championship game when you are older in your forties fifties sixties, you will always be a champion. This is your one time in your life to be a champion. All I'm asking you to do, follow the rules, do what I taught you to do and do it to the best of your ability and hopefully you'll be a champion. And I said that just before every Super Bowl game we won. Thank God, all three Super Bowls that we played, the last one we won with one minute to go in the game. What a long touchdown pass. But the thing that was fun Iwas We had fourth down and 10 and if we didn't get fourth down and 10 and get another first time, the game was over and we lost well, we got the fourth down play and I always told him It's execution. You execute every play like it's going to be the last one you ever going to do, and you want to do it to perfection. So we got the first down and I called two plays at one time. And I said, If we get the first down the huddle, this is what I want called. I went up to the line of scrimmage before they could get reorganized, and I want this place called and they did it. He threw it. The guy caught it. The whole place erupted. I mean, there was over 12,000 people in the stands. It was the first Super Bowl in Italy that was broadcast via radio all over the country. Wow, it was

spk_0:   11:11
I mean, you were champion to. You got to live that.

spk_1:   11:14
Oh, yeah. Again. It was really funny, Jeff, because I wasn't American. But when we played football games, they didn't play the national. They played the Italian nationally. You

spk_0:   11:30
know what? I I

spk_1:   11:31
always looked at myself. Is the guy that just was any outside looking? I'm just teaching these guys. Okay. So it was just one of those things that I was in the right place, right time, and it actually turned out perfectly.

spk_0:   11:48
We hope you're enjoying our show with Ray Simcoe. I want to tell you about another security giant, and this is security First and Associates. And they provide the FSO in the SI es eso consulting and training service is, you know, hire a full time FSO can be expensive, and the less expensive alternative is to use their managed security service's. The team at Security First and Associates is a team of security professionals, and it can help to minimize risk by assisting with many vital service is for fingerprinting and background checks to D SS security vulnerability assessments. They also J pass FSO and C S s O training. In fact, if you don't see the service you need, just ask. Security is our life. So okay. And, um, so I'm looking at your website now at race. Tim co dot com are a white ECM ko dot com. And I see. Is that person holding a trophy? Is that you? Um

spk_1:   13:05
I don't know what picture you're

spk_0:   13:06
looking at.

spk_1:   13:07
Yeah, I probably was holding the

spk_0:   13:08
trophy. Yeah, it looks like there's a football play in the background and you're holding a cup a big trophy and big smile on your face. I think that kind of looks like that could

spk_1:   13:17
have been the European Championship. Because, uh, what happened, Waas Not only was Italy playing football, but Germany is playing football. Then France started playing football then, um, Finland started playing football. Austria started playing football. Russia was even playing football. I've actually refereed a football game between Austria and Russia.

spk_0:   13:39
Oh, really?

spk_1:   13:40
Okay. Oh, yeah. And I'm a football was taken off in Europe because everybody wanted to play the American game. I mean, you know, the soccer is the worldwide game. No answers, no buts about it.

spk_0:   13:53
Right? But

spk_1:   13:53
football, like I used to tell me if you want to play good football, you've got to think like an American, act like an American and have upper body strength, like on the merits. That's that's just something you had to do because a lot of people when you you don't see muscle bound people playing soccer, right? So I had to teach him everything, Jeff, Everything. I mean, I had a tape from the proper way to do a push up. Wow, Everything.

spk_0:   14:27
Well, my

spk_1:   14:28
players were fantastic. I mean, they took to it and and like from season one to season two a dramatic change in just about every one of my players. They were proud that they were confident. The majority of my players have

spk_0:   14:46
all gone on to

spk_1:   14:48
do unbelievable things in football, for the country and for the younger generation. They just took it. I said, This is just more than a game. It teaches you principles for life. It teaches you discipline. It teaches you a lot of things. And, uh, that it was really neat to have my own players feed that back to me because I didn't have any contact with him for I want to say, over 20 years after I left Italy. You know, I always believe you just can't go home. You know, you had your time. You leave. You know, I'm not going to be the conquering hero returning or anything like that.

spk_0:   15:27
So I

spk_1:   15:27
just left it alone. I just left it alone and started doing other things. So when I when my football players found me because my marketing director, Cindy quick off, she put up Ah, business Facebook page. In all of a sudden, she got blood. She didn't even know I coach.

spk_0:   15:47
Wow.

spk_1:   15:49
Yeah. All these people started coming in calling me coach and all this other stuff, and she's blown away.

spk_0:   15:54
You had a whole another line was just

spk_1:   15:55
really kind of funny, you know, Because why don't you tell me this? Because it wasn't important.

spk_0:   16:01
Yeah,

spk_1:   16:01
Everybody likes to think that everybody wants to know all the wonderful things somebody else's done. They don't.

spk_0:   16:07
Well, I got

spk_1:   16:08
back to the United States. I took off my Super Bowl rings. I never put him back on.

spk_0:   16:13
Oh, man. Opening

spk_1:   16:14
in America cared.

spk_0:   16:15
I'd like to see one of those. Those would be called.

spk_1:   16:18
Well, like I said, there's not many of them

spk_0:   16:20
now.

spk_1:   16:21
There are. They give beautiful Super Bowl rings because you know what? They're 30 plus years into the leg,

spk_0:   16:27
right?

spk_1:   16:28
But if you think about it when I was there, the cunning football, uh, league in his bare beginnings, it's like the NFL was in the 19 twenties and thirties. Very few people going to the games. I mean, it was just you did the best you can do what you got. Um, way played football all over Italy trying to sell the game. We even played a football game in the inside of Monza Speedway.

spk_0:   16:55
Oh, really? On. Yeah, I know that place.

spk_1:   16:59
Yeah. So I I actually had the heavyweight champion of Italy on my football team for a couple games.

spk_0:   17:06
Oh, my goodness.

spk_1:   17:07
Yeah, And I had him on the defensive line, and, you know, he was a boxer, and I wouldn't want to go ahead and fight him. But football was a different game.

spk_0:   17:16
Yes,

spk_1:   17:16
and it was really funny, but yeah, I mean, they were doing publicity stunts. They were doing everything. And,

spk_0:   17:23
you

spk_1:   17:23
know, I was there.

spk_0:   17:24
Well, it sounds like you You have great instincts and you know people pretty well.

spk_1:   17:31
Well, I'd like to think so and see everything I've actually done in my life since I was drafted. Made a believer out of me. And I learned all these things not because there was somebody taken me under their wing and doing it. I learned all these things because I just couldn't be the person that I was when I was drafted. And I knew that, you know, I had to get smart. I knew I had to learn things, and that's about the biggest thing I I could have done for myself was realized nobody was gonna help me. You need to help yourself. You need to stop feeling sorry for yourself. And, uh, I do think so. And I was able Thio. What I did is any time I was afraid of something I force myself to do. It

spk_0:   18:16
does the grateful If

spk_1:   18:17
I failed. Yeah, Yeah, Even if I fail because, see, I know people who have never failed. I know people who have never done anything in their life. They go, the work, they get paid. But they're not going to take a chance on anything,

spk_0:   18:30
right, because

spk_1:   18:31
they could fail. So to me, those people aren't contributing to the success of whatever organization they belong to or, you know, our country or anything like that. You gotta take chances. You gotta fail.

spk_0:   18:47
Well, it sounds only

spk_1:   18:48
through failure that you learn to be successful.

spk_0:   18:50
That's exactly right. And I'm just wondering, like transitioning to what you do now. I'm really impressed by you know, your your development from the time you're you were drafted and how that's been communicated in that the time is as you're serving as a coach and then you come up with this interesting concept of, um, defense information, countering espionage. And I said, Okay, that's a cool slogan. Cool bumper sticker. But you actually built a culture around. So let me tell you about another one of our sponsors. And this podcast is also sponsored by security clearance defense lawyer dot com An attorney Ron Sixtus, Ron Consultant. All areas of security clearance concerns. They can be reached by phone at 2563983316 or through his website that I gave earlier. Oh, yeah, Because if you think that is most important whenever anybody, you need to have people remember what was that? Okay. And

spk_1:   20:03
I learned this through a program that I was forced

spk_0:   20:07
to

spk_1:   20:07
take in the seventies. Wow. When I first got the Italy and it was called neural linguistic programming and LP and I didn't want to go to it. It was a five day course. It was up in Munich, Germany.

spk_0:   20:21
I

spk_1:   20:21
was down in Vicenza, Italy, just didn't want to make the trip. I just didn't want to do it, Okay? I'm just one of those guys. This didn't sit well with me,

spk_0:   20:30
but no I went

spk_1:   20:31
there with a

spk_0:   20:31
bad attitude, okay?

spk_1:   20:33
And I was I was determined not to learn anything. I really waas and the funny thing waas that this is the one course that actually stuck with me because what neural linguistic programming taught you at that time that you need to be able to read people, you need to be able to understand body language. He needed to know if they were a visual person if they were auto audio person, if they were an action person. Because when you're talking to these people and you want them to warm up to you and like you instantaneously, you need to hear the words they use feed them back to them. They enjoy hearing their words, saying, you know, said back to them. And it was just something that the commanding general of the intelligence community thought all agents would need to know. Well, I thought that I knew a lot of stuff, but it did kind of make a lot of sense. And the one thing that stuck with me that I never thought would stick with me was anchoring. You need the anchor what you're saying people have to be able to remember stuff. And the anchor I came up with, and this is like 12 years later was if I was going to give a security awareness briefing, security, education, whatever you wanna call it, it had to have an anchor. Because what I did is I looked at the time. I mean, I've been an agent since 1971. A counterintelligence, special agent, military intelligence for the United States Army, and their program was called Aida,

spk_0:   22:18
right? I remember that was

spk_1:   22:19
not like it was a disease,

spk_0:   22:21
right?

spk_1:   22:21
I mean, what what is this? I eat a briefing, you know? Well, if you spell it all out Subversion and espionage directed against United States Army. That's fine. But I knew and and I had a mean old crusty sergeant. Tell me this one time when he said, You know, if we ever get to do something original, try and think outside the buck And this was something that I was able to do. Why was I able to do it? My first job after I left the Army was Defense Intelligence Agency, and they did not have an awareness program. So the guy who hired me he says you create one. So this is my chance to be original, to think outside the box. And I'm thinking, OK, what am I going to do? And this is where anchoring entered my mind. You know, it's just amazing how you learn things throughout your life and they're in your mind. And then all of a sudden, when you need it, it popped out at me and I tell this to a lot of young people. They go, Well, I'd like to be able to do something what you're doing in the whole nine yards. How can I prepare myself? I said. What you need to do is learn as much as you can be very proficient at your job, and then one day you're going to be called upon to do it, and it's gonna be your day to shine. And if you are prepared for that moment, you don't know what that moment's going to be. You don't know what it what is going to entail, but if you are as prepared as you can be by knowing your job by having confidence in yourself to perform your job, all aspects of it, whatever you're called upon to do. If you do it well and you shine that that's going to kick start to your career, you're not gonna be in the background anymore. You're gonna be moved to the front. And that's all I ever tried to do for myself. I knew the regulations. I knew everything that I thought I needed to know. But I didn't know that today that I was going to have to do something in what it was was make a presentation. And believe me, nobody prepares you in the United States Army to make a presentation,

spk_0:   24:32
right.

spk_1:   24:33
They get you how to instruct. Okay, the military way of instructing. But just to get up and talk in front of a group of high ranking military office, there's no no, no, no, of course for that. And I did it and it was absolutely amazing feedback, and that was the first step. And then it's all little incremental steps. But all of a sudden, now I had developed It was an honest credibility that he knew what I was talking about, and it can't uphold it from there,

spk_0:   25:08
so but

spk_1:   25:09
it took me 14 years basically to get to that point,

spk_0:   25:12
right? And, um, and the dice briefings. As as they're referred to as now again, you gave them an anchor point, Something to remember. But right now, reading your biography or reading about you, it looks like, um, one of your briefings lead Thio. Ah, report of a concern about a D I a, um employees.

spk_1:   25:38
Oh, yeah. And, um, on cash, it's actually written in the book. I mean, there's been several people who have been reported because people who listen to my briefings and it sticks with them. They see something strange here, suspicious. They reported it to the security people and security people did the right thing and investigated in every aspect. And the next thing you know, bingo, bango, bongo it's done

spk_0:   26:00
that

spk_1:   26:00
there, it's the way to do it and it can happen. But see if that person didn't make the report, nothing would have ever been done.

spk_0:   26:09
And that's correct, why

spk_1:   26:10
it's so important. And that's one of the reasons I created this type of program. I mean, the dice Akron and I and I have to tell everybody why they're going to think dice, because in my briefing slides, I always used dice. I mean, there's nothing that is standard about any of the slides that I use. In fact, when I first did my first night's briefing, I took out a pair of fuzzy dice that used the hanging from the rear view mirror People's cars,

spk_0:   26:41
right

spk_1:   26:41
in the seventies. It was in the sixties more predominately, but the seventies and eighties they still had it. I said, Next time you're driving down the road, you see a pair of fuzzy dice hanging from the rear view mirror. Somebody's car. You're going to think about security you can think about is you know she can't think about terrorism. Worst case scenarios. You're going to start thinking about me, but anyway,

spk_0:   26:59
you look at it.

spk_1:   27:00
I got you and one of the greatest testaments I got in the first year. It was actually from a gunning in West Virginia, and he sent me an email and he said it Christmas morning. His kids broke out a game. They rolled the dice and all he could think about was me.

spk_0:   27:24
You got in his head. I

spk_1:   27:28
I've had people give me dice. Um, I had a guy that actually went to the white agrees, and he's walking through the flea market there. And all of a sudden he saw an alabaster set of dice.

spk_0:   27:40
Oh, that's cool.

spk_1:   27:41
They were expensive, he said. There's no way I'm spending that much money for him. And I mean, when we were close friends and uh so next day he had to go back to get him because he felt bad for not getting them and gave him to me and, you know, made a remark like, I can't stand what you did to me

spk_0:   28:00
E. I can't

spk_1:   28:02
look at a pair of dice and

spk_0:   28:03
I was

spk_1:   28:03
thinking about tonight's program.

spk_0:   28:05
Me and

spk_1:   28:05
I go. That's the name of the whole game, you know? So I've had many testimonials over the years, but, uh, you know, it's just I knew it was gonna work. There was just no doubt in my mind. It fit all the holes of people listening to my talk and then being able to remember and more dice. Three things you hear, the more you're going to remember it.

spk_0:   28:28
I think now more than ever, we still need to have that message. I just see you posted something recently about a Harvard professor and two Chinese nationals. Heir charged in three separate China related cases. Um,

spk_1:   28:41
sure, but that's been going on for decades.

spk_0:   28:44
Decades.

spk_1:   28:46
Oh, unbelievable. That was one of the biggest things with my dice program. All of a sudden, I have people who are reporting never reported before because I just honestly think they believe that would do something with it.

spk_0:   29:01
Right?

spk_1:   29:02
And all of a sudden, we were learning things that nobody wanted to know.

spk_0:   29:07
Um,

spk_1:   29:09
yeah, that's that's a problem when you're successful, sometimes.

spk_0:   29:12
Well, he actually

spk_1:   29:13
didn't want to know any more. They wanted me to stop doing the dice. Three things.

spk_0:   29:17
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. What are we gonna do with this information?

spk_1:   29:21
Yeah, because now we look, we look bad, you know?

spk_0:   29:26
Yeah.

spk_1:   29:27
And if you don't have anybody reporting, nobody looks bad. What? Security? Like here? Everything's great.

spk_0:   29:31
Everything's good dead, man.

spk_1:   29:35
Yeah, we don't We don't have any money for security. We don't have. We don't have security people who even know how to ask for money. Nothing. Most people who gave security briefings and I had to listen to the security briefings. That's why I knew if I was ever gonna do it. I was gonna do it different than anybody had ever done it. And I'm like, This is horrible. I most first up apologize for taking up so much time. You know, it's a standard old mark. The document you gotta gotta, gotta, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking, now, come No, no, this is so much more. And then when I started doing die spring things and people would invite me out and they were inviting me out because their spouse heard me a d i a maybe And then told them about it at dinner time. Who talks about a security briefing over dinner,

spk_0:   30:22
Right? Okay. Nobody. And

spk_1:   30:24
then they go back to the organization they belong to because you have ever spent any time Washington, D. C, both husband and wife.

spk_0:   30:32
You

spk_1:   30:32
know, a lot of people in the same household work for some government agency.

spk_0:   30:37
Okay?

spk_1:   30:39
Yeah. So they were telling their security Babel. A heard about the security briefing is going around yada yada. And next thing you know, even my own organization couldn't get over the amount of outside invitations I was receiving to present. And it was just mind boggling. I've actually had to do this for, um Hey, British Royal Navy. Where, for instance,

spk_0:   31:05
Really? Okay.

spk_1:   31:06
Actually wanted a dice, Everything. I had to get government approval to be able to go ahead and talk to him.

spk_0:   31:11
Really?

spk_1:   31:12
Oh, my God. Eah.

spk_0:   31:13
Oh, because it was

spk_1:   31:14
just an And my supervisors then decided they needed to come with me because they wanted, based on I have to do the National Security Council because they were talking about it. This is in the early days, okay. And, um, the deputy assistant for security in the Pentagon. I had to go brief them the heads of all the military. And it was just amazing where I was putting myself. I've done the White House has done the White House military organization of done camp. David, Um, it is scary where I've been sometimes,

spk_0:   31:50
right, But people are interested.

spk_1:   31:53
Well, yeah, they wanted No, they want to know. What's this all about? Someone want to know it because they just want to know. And then some of them want to hear me so that they could hurt me with

spk_0:   32:02
Don't know. Yeah.

spk_1:   32:04
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Nobody's gonna goto away with something like that. No, no, Who do you think you are?

spk_0:   32:09
Right. Uh, I

spk_1:   32:12
had a lot of that.

spk_0:   32:13
So more

spk_1:   32:14
than my fair share of that,

spk_0:   32:15
Yeah, it's got to be tough on you to do the good work, and then it not being appreciated. It's appreciated by the people who need it. That's

spk_1:   32:23
a lot of us.

spk_0:   32:24
Yeah. Okay, right.

spk_1:   32:25
A lot of us are in that, but, you know, and it was just absolutely amazing. And then what you have to do is you just have to overlook these things in the thing that I was fortunate enough was I believed in what I was doing. I still believe in what I'm doing. That's how you have to get through it. I've been blackballed,

spk_0:   32:46
right? Okay. So I

spk_1:   32:48
mean, black ball

spk_0:   32:49
don't come here again.

spk_1:   32:51
If if if I would have ever blackballed anybody, they throw me in jail somehow. But it's okay, because, you know, we're just not gonna have him say this and say that. And I say to anybody who says that if I'm lying, then you got a point. Yeah, but I'm not lying.

spk_0:   33:11
I've

spk_1:   33:11
had actual people. In fact, I had one of the heads of the military and maybe actually say that I was lying and I was given a clock just to him and, uh, the Army and the Air Force and the Marines and, uh, deputy assistant director for security. And he says That's not when I say yesterday and he says it's not I would have known about it. Then the guy from the army hit him, told him, said, Yeah, just came out this morning.

spk_0:   33:40
Oh, man.

spk_1:   33:43
Okay, Now, let me tell you the side story to that. He doesn't say anything, but, you know, it was in a small room, and it was very contentious after that.

spk_0:   33:53
Oh, I bet I had to

spk_1:   33:54
push through it. Oh, yeah, right. So I want to say it was probably minimum. 15 years later, I see him. He comes up to me any thank me for the job that I've done.

spk_0:   34:09
And he

spk_1:   34:09
said he did a great job that said, I shouldn't have said what I said, And But I said to him, I said, You know how much better I feel for you? Told me that 15

spk_0:   34:20
years ago,

spk_1:   34:23
You one of those things. But if you're gonna put yourself out there You better be good,

spk_0:   34:29
right? And

spk_1:   34:30
you say I'm only as good as last briefing. I did

spk_0:   34:33
right? What have you done for me? Yeah, you

spk_1:   34:38
know, it's just one of those things. And then here's what The biggest problem I kept on being invited and some people, some organizations had me 21 years in a row.

spk_0:   34:49
Wow,

spk_1:   34:50
21 years in a row. I spoke at their conference. Now I don't know anything but 21 years. I did. So what do you think happened if I do something 21 year, she go, Well, he's He's not done anything new. Well, guess what? For 21 years, I obviously did.

spk_0:   35:11
Yes. Who's imagining things I

spk_1:   35:14
had to do was improved on the briefing. Make sure my information is current, as I could possibly make it up to date, not talking about the Walker case. I'm not talking about cases that were 25 30 years old, and I always said that, but by doing that in keeping it fresh and talking, a hang up hang in people's dirty laundry out the people whose laundry I hang out hate

spk_0:   35:40
me So it read. By publishing, we strive to provide relevant and current security training, as well as books and blog's and newsletters, and we encourage you to come visit our website at www dot red bike publishing dot com and pick up some books or some training that serve as required training. That D. S S or family D S s, which is a defense counter intelligence security Agency D. C. S A and way have required training at our website, as well as books that cover relevant security topics, security training, security clearances and howto handle classified material. Some the very things at a race Simcoe is talking about in these next few episodes of Deal D secure. So we hope that you come visit us again at Red Bike publishing dot com. Sign up for newsletter and we also have links to our blawg and our podcast. They're just click on it, and I want to mention another podcast. We have called running an obstacle race training in its for fitness people. We call it fitness junkies. People who run and do body weight exercise, or maybe do some of these obstacle course races that have come up coming up. So we ask that you join us on that podcast as well at the time. And as usual, thank you so much for visiting with us and now back to the rest of the podcast. So let me let me pull that thread a little bit because I think that that's a good point. We talked last week and you mentioned that. You know, Jeff, I'm not security, but I'm counterintelligence, and that was a good point because you know things that security people don't know and all we get our briefings about Walker and Montas and and all these other people. But how do you get relevant up to date information? Is that available to security managers? Well, that's how we have for this week's episode of D O D Secure. But join us next time as Ray gives us our answer that we're looking for. What other resource is are out there that security managers can pull from to give relevant and realistic training, and we hope that you'll join us next time again. We like to think the sponsors of our podcast being Security First and Associates and Security Clearance defense lawyer dot com with Ron Sixtus and also, as usual, red bike publishing. So come join us next time and we would love to have you there. If you have any questions or comments about this podcast, please contact us at editor at red bike publishing dot com.